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Kunena 5.1 Beta 1 Released (05 Oct 2017)

The Kunena team is pleased to announce Kunena 5.1.0 Beta 1 [K 5.1 Beta 1].
Please read the blog post for information: www.kunena.org/blog/188-kunena-5-1-beta-released

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Merged Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered by Kunena" link)

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5 years 4 months ago #31 by John
John replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered
They don't lay shame on anyone removing the link. They just ask not to.

You are not forced to do anything, you have all rights to remove the link. The creators of this fantastic piece of software simply choose not to assist in removing their credits as is their good right.

I just cant believe the fuss you guys make over a simple credit link, a small thank you for the ones who created this forum software for free!!! If you want it removed, nobody is stopping you, just dont expect help over here.

As you seem to know the GPL (all versions) very well, please point me to the section where it is stated that a programmer must cooperate in removing code and the section that is disregarded by Kunena.

My website: www.aquainfo.org
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5 years 3 months ago #32 by WebTrooper
WebTrooper replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered

www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

3. Protecting Users' Legal Rights From Anti-Circumvention Law.
No covered work shall be deemed part of an effective technological measure under any applicable law fulfilling obligations under article 11 of the WIPO copyright treaty adopted on 20 December 1996, or similar laws prohibiting or restricting circumvention of such measures.

When you convey a covered work, you waive any legal power to forbid circumvention of technological measures to the extent such circumvention is effected by exercising rights under this License with respect to the covered work, and you disclaim any intention to limit operation or modification of the work as a means of enforcing, against the work's users, your or third parties' legal rights to forbid circumvention of technological measures.


While section 3 was written to address proprietary hardware, it applies equally to software. The sole purpose of making the link almost impossible for non-programmers to remove it is to force people to keep it on their forum pages. By refusing to tell them how to remove it, and deleting posts on this forum which tell them how to, the developers of Kunena are acting in violation of section 3.

I'm not mentioning how much I appreciate all the hard work the Kunena developers have done, because that is not the point. Rules are meant to be followed. I follow them and I expect others to follow them. Kunena is breaking the rules.
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5 years 3 months ago #33 by severdia
severdia replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered
Since you are making some pretty bold accusations, let's set the record straight on a few things here...

WebTrooper wrote: While section 3 was written to address proprietary hardware, it applies equally to software. The sole purpose of making the link almost impossible for non-programmers to remove it is to force people to keep it on their forum pages. By refusing to tell them how to remove it, and deleting posts on this forum which tell them how to, the developers of Kunena are acting in violation of section 3.


It is not impossible nor is it difficult to remove the Kunena footer credit. All Kunena code is freely distributed and modifiable under the GPL with absolutely no encryption or protections against circumvention (there are no protections at all and absolutely nothing to circumvent in the first place) so you're misinterpreting that passage of the GPL.

The Kunena team is not responsible for teaching anyone how to do anything. We provide the code unencumbered and if a person doesn't have the knowledge to do it, it has nothing to do with a violation of the GPL. Go hire someone on oDesk or, simpler yet, do a Google search.

WebTrooper wrote: I'm not mentioning how much I appreciate all the hard work the Kunena developers have done, because that is not the point. Rules are meant to be followed. I follow them and I expect others to follow them. Kunena is breaking the rules.


I know the GPL (and its various flavors) very well and the rules are being followed to the letter. Always have been and always will be. The Kunena Project decided a few years ago that we didn't want to help people who didn't want to leave the credit. If people figure out how to remove it (or modify the code in any other manner), that's totally their choice and right. Just because we don't help doesn't mean we're in violation of the GPL. The footer credit is there for a variety of reasons, but mainly to show support of a free, volunteer-based project (like Joomla). If you don't want to show that support, that's fine. But don't expect Kunena team members to be helpful in that regard.

So let's put to rest any wild speculation on what the GPL says regarding the footer link. The bottom line is you can remove it if you want, but we won't help you.

Author of Using Joomla from O'Reilly Media. | www.usingjoomlabook.com
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5 years 3 months ago - 5 years 3 months ago #34 by WebTrooper
WebTrooper replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong part of the GPL, but my point is Kunena is intentionally restricting access to modify the code. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the purpose of making the back link more difficult to remove? The intention is to restrict access.

Deleting the post that told how to remove the link was also a deliberate attempt to make the code more difficult to modify. Kunena did't write that post, a fellow member did.

Some people want to remove the link for valid reasons. It does not mean the don't appreciate Kunena and all the work that has gone into it. Many of those people have to ask how, and where else would they ask but the official Kunena forum? A lot of users leave the link there, either because they don't care about it or in an effort to promote Kunena. Isn't that enough? Users should be allowed to decide for them selves whether or not to display the link. Kunena's deliberate effort to prevent people from doing that is, if not in violation to the GPL, it certainly goes against the spirit of GPL.

Reasons why Kunena should help users to remove the link.

- Doing so would say a lot for the good character of Kunena and it's developers.

- It won't cost that many precious back links.

- It would stop people from squabbling about the darn back link.
Last Edit: 5 years 3 months ago by WebTrooper.
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5 years 3 months ago - 5 years 3 months ago #35 by severdia
severdia replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered

WebTrooper wrote: Maybe I'm looking at the wrong part of the GPL, but my point is Kunena is intentionally restricting access to modify the code. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the purpose of making the back link more difficult to remove? The intention is to restrict access.


Yes, you're wrong. There's nothing restricting access to any part of Kunena's code. No encryption, obfuscation or anything else whatsoever.

WebTrooper wrote: Deleting the post that told how to remove the link was also a deliberate attempt to make the code more difficult to modify. Kunena did't write that post, a fellow member did.


No, the code is equally easy/difficult (depending on your skill level) to modify whether or not the post exists. The code is the code and nothing changed. You could make the argument it was made more difficult to learn how to modify that part of the code, but the code itself did not change.

WebTrooper wrote: Some people want to remove the link for valid reasons. It does not mean the don't appreciate Kunena and all the work that has gone into it.


It doesn't matter what the reasons are and whether they are "valid" or not is subjective.

WebTrooper wrote: Many of those people have to ask how, and where else would they ask but the official Kunena forum?



Because of the reasons already stated in this thread.

WebTrooper wrote: A lot of users leave the link there, either because they don't care about it or in an effort to promote Kunena. Isn't that enough?


No, it's not about quantity. It's about individuals who benefit from free software saying "thanks".

WebTrooper wrote: Users should be allowed to decide for them selves whether or not to display the link.


And they can. They are perfectly free to remove the link if they want. Nobody will stop them and it's totally within their right.

WebTrooper wrote: Kunena's deliberate effort to prevent people from doing that is, if not in violation to the GPL, it certainly goes against the spirit of GPL.


No, there's no "deliberate effort to prevent people from doing this". There's a deliberate effort to not teach people how to do it. Those are two very different things. You clearly don't understand how the GPL works with a claim like that. The whole reason you use Kunena or we're even having this exchange is because of the freedoms the GPL gives to Kunena users—the freedom to do whatever they want with the code (of course, as long as the attribution remains). You can define the spirit of the GPL how you like, but that's not how the license works.

WebTrooper wrote: Reasons why Kunena should help users to remove the link.

- Doing so would say a lot for the good character of Kunena and it's developers.

- It won't cost that many precious back links.

- It would stop people from squabbling about the darn back link.


Doesn't the fact there's been over 2 million downloads of Kunena say something about the character of the project and its developers? Doesn't the FREE support by the Kunena team on this forum say something as well? There aren't many places you'll find that.

Those who "squabble" over this issue really need to look at how absurd their "sense of entitlement" is. This is a volunteer based project that makes NOTHING and gives a helluva lot to its users without asking for one penny. For those that just want to squabble—how about pitching in to help a project that has helped so many? How about helping others and contributing in a way others have helped you? Has that crossed the minds of those folks? Maybe if those people gave thanks in some other way, they might get some personal assistance or help in removing the footer link or anything else they need help with. THAT'S the spirit of the GPL.

Author of Using Joomla from O'Reilly Media. | www.usingjoomlabook.com
Last Edit: 5 years 3 months ago by severdia.
The following user(s) said Thank You: woonydanny, sozzled, John
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5 years 3 months ago #36 by WebTrooper
WebTrooper replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered
Fair enough, I don't use Kunena anyway.
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5 years 3 months ago #37 by severdia
severdia replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered

WebTrooper wrote: Fair enough, I don't use Kunena anyway.


Wow, that's a lot of complaining and accusation for someone who doesn't even use Kunena.

Author of Using Joomla from O'Reilly Media. | www.usingjoomlabook.com
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5 years 3 months ago #38 by woonydanny
woonydanny replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered
well said to all above severdia :)

still wish that i can write my forum signature through a jomsocial plugin and do it from my jomsocial profile :(
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5 years 3 months ago #39 by adeniyi2010
adeniyi2010 replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered

severdia wrote:

WebTrooper wrote: Fair enough, I don't use Kunena anyway.


Wow, that's a lot of complaining and accusation for someone who doesn't even use Kunena.


I don't think he needs to use Kunena to make some contribution. That he is registered on your website means he is a part of your community.
Joomla has a lot of extensions and modules that are free. When you use about 10 of them and you you have no way of removing the "powered by" in all of them, your site is filled up with links and powered by on different pages. Some may not like this or feel it makes their website less professional - that you are using freebies and cannot afford a real website - the same reason you get your own domain name.

Kunena can decide they want people to keep the link but I would prefer they take a step further and make it a true choice as the GPL license specifies. In asking us not to, Kunena is placing us under a moral burden and dilemma. Why tell us we are free to remove it and then turn back and say you don't like it? A person who does not care about Kunena's effort would probably not bother about their feeling on this - but a true appreciative person would try to get Kunena to allow them or be emotionally blackmailed into leaving it.

By the way, I use Kunena.
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5 years 3 months ago #40 by John
John replied the topic: Please help me understand the GPL for Kunena ... (and removing the "Powered
The official Kunena forum and extentions only have 1 link at the bottom. Not several. You are free to remove that link if that is what you want. They only ask you not to. If you feel blackmailed because of that request....sorry to hear that. Removing the link is not hard nor difficult to find. The makers of Kunena have choosen not to help in removing the link or allow help with removing the link on their forums. Maybe we can show them respect for their work by granting them this one favor.

Off course we can keep bothering them with this discussion, keeping them away from all the hard work they do for us. And maybe they will change their mind....or stop programming for Kunena if they get fed up with it. We are not little childeren who keep nagging and nagging untill they get what they want, right?

My website: www.aquainfo.org
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